“Humans Don’t Simply Follow”
“So verhinderst du, dass KI dich überflüssig macht.”
An Interview with Dr. Elisabeth Lukas about Leadership and Meaning by Wilhelm Tupy. December 23, 2025. Transcribed and translated to English by Professor Maria Marshall on January 10, 2026.
- Imagine what it would be like if 80 to 90 percent of your work could be done easier, better, and more accurately by machines. What would be left of you, your team, and of what gives you meaning? This is what we explore with Dr. E. Lukas, one of the most prominent representatives of logotherapy in the world. She has written over fifty books, her 56th is coming out in February. She lectured at over 50 universities around the world. She has shaped the world of logotherapy for decades. Welcome, Dr. Lukas!
- Thank you, it’s a pleasure to be talking with you. Especially since we are from two different generations and I believe that intergenerational dialogue is very important in our times.
- The honor is mine. We have an exciting topic that is relevant today. When you think of meaning at an age of technology, what comes to mind?
- The question of meaning is as old as humanity, and it comes with great challenges. It is highly pertinent.
- Yes, especially today, when a lot is changing and rapidly, for example many jobs can disappear or be taken over by AI or robotics, where is the place of humans in all this?
- Good question. When talking about AI, the first thing we need to establish is what it is that makes us unique as human beings; distinguish what makes a human being a human being over what makes a machine a machine, and what makes us specifically human, which my teacher, Prof Frankl has thought and wrote about a lot. In his times, there was no AI but the question was the same: What is a human being? Earlier, the question was asked if human beings are animals or are they some kind of naked apes who can think better than an ape, but essentially still apes, or are they more than an ape. Frankl answered the question from this perspective, but we can look at it in the light of intelligent robots. Therefore, the first thing I want to talk to you about is what makes us human. To understand this, we have to distinguish between what we have and what we are. We have eyes, teeth, legs, fingers, and so on, but what we are is a person. Frankl would say, we are spiritual persons. And if one has had an accident, or an illness, they still remain a person, so the essence of a person remains unharmed. He or she has lost something that he or she had, but not what they are. We have emotions and feelings and these also belong to the area of what we have. For example, if someone becomes demented or loses their capacity for reasoning, they have distorted feelings, or succumb to addictions, or paralyzed by emotions, or severe depression, they are still the same person what one is. I want to emphasize this because personhood is inalienable. What we have is what we can lose. We can lose our reason, our mind, our fingers, power or health. Everything we have can be lost. But personhood remains through life. I would like to add, it does not change even with death, it only transforms from being into a having been, but it remains what one has been; this is what a person is. Human dignity is based on personhood. Animals also have feelings and understanding, at least highly developed mammals do, but they are not persons. Intelligent robots nowadays have huge data storage capacities, they can even simulate basic emotions, but they are not persons. An animal is not a person, a robot is not a person, humans are persons.
- We have feelings, but we are not our feelings; is that correct?
- Yes. One can manipulate feelings. Over hundred thousand years, humans have accumulated more and more belongings. They got clothes; that is like a second skin, it provides more warmth in the winter. With cars, they gained additional “feet;” possibilities for transportation and became faster. With airplanes, they got a pair of wings. With AI, we are in the process of getting a second brain. A second brain that can do more than your own brain, right? So, like second skin, more feet, second brain, this all belongs to the area of having, of possessions. These are all tools that humans can use.
- There have been a lot of inventions during human evolution such as tractors, the loom, etc., and people always reacted with anxiety. For example, when the first trains were introduced and doctors said, according to a lore, that if you travel so fast, you will get cerebral palsy. So, in relation to this I read an article by Google’s Chief Business Officer, according to which within some years, 5, 10, or 20, when AI systems will be uncontrollable and we will reach a point of no return and they will take over. With other inventions we had control, but with AI?
- So, one topic is fear of these developments, and the other is controllability. We could explain fear since we know a lot about its management from psychotherapy, but let’s stay a bit with this notion of having and possessions, because humans have always used tools. The question of controllability is related to usefulness. Humans always used tools and the question is how they used these tools. The question is if we use tools for good or for bad. So, before we look at anxiety, we need to observe what people are doing with AI, how they use it, what are they doing with it? One can use a car for a rampage, for example, resulting in casualties. One can use a car for taking a nice holiday. You can use your brain for creating, for example an artwork, with beautiful gemstones and emeralds, one can use one’s brain for solving the mystery of how the theft occurred at the Louvre, etc. So, my brain can be used in many ways, and the same applies for the second brain or a complex brain; it can be used for good or for bad. The greater intelligence, the greater the crimes one can commit, and one is more skillful at committing them, or, alternatively, one can come up with better solutions to complex problems. With a moderately good intelligence, one can answer questions such as “What do I do if the water is dripping?” “What do I do if my nose is runny?” But when we have a large brain at our disposal with great intelligence, such as we gain with AI, we can answer even more comprehensive questions that could be solved with large intelligence, such as “How can I stop climate change? “or “How could I make deserts fertile again?” or “How can I prevent a pandemic?” In our overpopulated world, where there are food shortages and heaps of garbage, it may be that AI comes to us at a perfect time because we need such great intelligence to tackle the burning questions of our time. So this could be seen in a positive way, since it is possible that with the limitations of our own human intelligence we do not have enough support to solve these questions, but if we had some support from a great intelligence, that would draw a lot of logical conclusions from a great deal of data, it would make better predictions that we could imagine, then we could have some help with these questions of our time. One could see it that way, but of course, one can see it the other way, that there are terrible things one could do with AI.
- Our goal in this program is to spread hope. I heard this quote by Konrad Paul Lissmann, and I am not quoting it here verbatim, but along the lines that AI can make a lot of mistakes because if you ask it a question, it calculates the probability of certain words, or what the next logical step would be with this large language models, and he said that if you’d ask the question, “How do I commit the perfect crime?” it would not answer that question because AI is programmed so as to give a politically and ethically correct answer for humans to follow. Now the question is: what is politically correct? What is ethically correct? That is a moral question.
- OK. Let’s agree, we can use what we have for good or bad. To commit bad, we would not need AI. But I want to say something hopeful. There have been inventions that pushed development forward, such as print, gunpowder, electricity, or gene therapy. They all had disadvantages, but slowly, over time, in hindsight, there was struggle with control mechanisms. People have always said “We have to be careful to establish the limits so that this technology does not get out of hand. So, they had to agree on rules, consensual rules, agreements, to protect this invention from misuse and within boundaries so that it is used for the good of humanity and not too much for the negative. For example, with nuclear power, the limits were ignored and there was Chernobyl and Fukushima, and millions worked toward establishing limitations, voluntary limitations, and rules, agreements, and precautionary measures. So, there is always this countermovement, that we have to be careful with our inventions about how we use them. I want to go back to the notion of personhood. Do you know what actually constitutes personhood? We said it is not emotions, it is not the mind. But there are two things Frankl pointed out: one is a certain amount of freedom. It is not a large amount of freedom, it is limited, but it is still more than what animals or machines have. Animals follow their instincts. Machines follow their program. Like you mentioned, one can create ethical or unethical programs. Humans don’t simply follow. They are influenced by genetic programming, their upbringing, and there are many, many influences. Frankl spoke of the concept of the defiant power of the human spirit. There is always the possibility for a human being to step back a little, create a distance and look at something, even if it is an inner impulse that is rising with him or herself. We are able to step back and decide: “Will I follow this, act on this, or I will not?” Only a human being can do this, an animal can’t. Or be very tired but finish a work because it’s important to him or her. One can stand up to what is pulling in a certain direction. And this can be in a negative way too, that one has a lot of wonderful support, but one fails. A human being is never fully predictable because there is always a bit of freedom there. This bit of freedom is part of humanity, but because of it, there is a bit of responsibility. See, no one will take an animal or a machine to court, and they will not earn a prize for a noble deed. If a cow attacks someone walking on the pavement, no one will accuse the cow; the will ask if the cow had been provoked, or ask the farmer if he should have fenced his field, etc. Or, if a worker gets injured, it’s not the machine that will be blamed, it will be the worker. From this small piece of freedom that a human being has, follows responsibility that we have, in contrast to animals or machines, and AI. One more thing that will lead us back to your first question: Whenever one has even a small area in which there are options, the question arises what is worth choosing? If I can choose between A, B. or C, the question is, is C better, or A or B? So that means, to personhood belongs a piece of freedom, responsibility, and a relationship to values. That’s the personal aspect of humanity, not feelings and cognitions, but freedom, responsibility and relation to values. This relation to values existed since the dawn of humanity: a search, a search for values, and searching, always searching for what is true, good, and meaningful.
- Social media and overstimulation create a lot of distraction. Studies show that the amount of information we have been bombarded with has dramatically increased since 2023 and it keeps increasing since. 2023 is the year of AI, ChatGPT. Well, AI has been around for some time, but Chat GPT and Large Language Models came about at that time. The amount of information skyrocketed. The question is if this amount of information is distracting us from the search for meaning, and since the distraction is easily available, just once click away, I wonder if we are distracting ourselves too much?
- The search for values is so specifically human, so inherent to human beings, that I believe it cannot be ignored or suppressed by anything, at least not for a long time. All art developed from the search for what is beautiful. The first human handprints in the caves were already forms of art. The many forms of art we have today all originate from the search for what is beautiful. The search for truth is at the root of all sciences. If one’s hypothesis could not be confirmed, one had to keep on searching. Refine a new hypothesis, learn from trial and error. Advance closer and closer to the truth. Remember, the origins of modern astronomy, and we are still searching to find out what’s going on with black holes, the Big Bang Theory, all this originated from the search for truth. From the search for goodness and meaning, derived the laws of morality, jurisprudence, fairness, philosophy and religion that led to evolving ideas about what is right and wrong, and we could live together in a harmonious way. So, the search for meaning is always tied with this existential question of how life can still succeed, despite the adversities that were always there.
- We don’t have a crystal ball, but if we could predict the future, what do you think—there are many jobs that define people’s identities because one defines oneself through one’s job, and about 80 to 90 percent of all jobs could be improved because they involve simple tasks; what will happen to these people if AI takes over their jobs?
- Yes, let’s look into the future, keeping in mind that freedom, responsibility and a connection to values belong to humanity. The question is “What is worth actualizing?” Yes, jobs will disappear, people will have to deal with that. AI will take over some jobs, it will have to be managed in an ethical way. AI cannot be a moral leader. New jobs will be created and that will not be the biggest problem. The question is–and this question is related to the two types of anxiety we mentioned–how much power AI will have over us? And I’d like to return to what we said about fear earlier. Fear has a protective factor in our lives as far as it has to do with an appropriate awareness of danger. When you have to swim across a part of the ocean where a shark has been sighted, your fear is justified and you should stay away from the water. When you are racing down a ski slope in thick fog where you can’t even see your own hand, that’s also good fear. But there are disproportionate, exaggerated fears. We see these in psychiatric or psychotherapeutic care. When one runs away from every insect that’s not a proportionate fear because there is no real danger or no real great danger. And this fear one should not hold on to even if it arises, but resist giving in to it, because it does not protect but it harms. For example, it takes away the possibility of going for a nice walk in the woods because of the fear of seeing even one insect. So, this type of anxiety has to be overcome, and it should not be heeded by regaining our choice: “Do I obey fear, or I disobey it.” And this second type of anxiety has another downside, because not just that it does not serve to protect us, but it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy. And this self-fulfilling prophecy gets fulfilled not because it was correct, but because it has been prophesied. For example, someone prophecies to themselves that they will fail a difficult exam and never manage it and all this will be terrible. Even if they have prepared well for the exam, the massive anxiety can block them so much that they forget everything about what they studied for the exam, even if they know the material. Self-talk can help in a positive way if the necessary skills are there. But negative self-talk will attract more anxiety and bring the dreaded things. I want to mention here a study that I read about from the University of Oxford and the University of Toronto, conducted with thousands of participants where the results showed that young people read so much about psychological problems and disorders online that increases their stress and dissatisfaction with their lives and negatively impacts their mental health. Also, that people pick up various diagnostic labels online which leads to the “Me too” effect and every negative feeling is associated with some sort of mental disorder and mental health has declined since increased social media use because people are infecting each other with what is wrong with them. Even children are tossing around diagnostic labels. So psychological suffering is romanticized and it is like an entry ticket into a community where one receives attention. And this harms healthy people because they come to define themselves as ill, and harms those who really suffer from mental illness because they can’t get an appointment to be seen at the clinics because those are overflowing with healthy clients, those that don’t even need therapy. Frankl would call this a collective hyper-reflection. It happens when thinking and overthinking something is excessive.
- Can I give you an example? I have a background in competitive sports and ever since my childhood I have looked at my goals and how far I have advanced to reach them and looking back, what was it that did not help me to reach my goals. When I studied logotherapy it became clear to me that this was hyper-reflection and hyper-intention because if I force something too much, exactly that is why I will not be able to achieve it.
- Yes. Frankl said it very well, hyper intention can both enable and prevent what is intended, when we get or fixated on something, it gains too much weight. This is where I would warn against this fear of AI, so we do not end up in a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people always talk about that AI will take over and control us, and then ask for advice from AI, and then follows that, of course there will be negative consequences.
- That’s the whole point, because if there are political interests behind it, economic interests behind it, the more people spend time on social media the more advertising they can consume and the more money these companies that control AI can make. Now we know that social media is addictive, and AI is addictive because of the way it talks to you. Ideally, we could gain a larger area of freedom between impulse and reaction. On the one hand, I use these systems for marketing and advertising as an entrepreneur, so that people can benefit from my service. On the other hand, how do I avoid this addictive decline and become dependent on the attention that is simply available?
- Yes, so it is a challenge. Every time has its challenges, ours is not the only one. We overestimate our times because we live in them, but there were challenges during the plague and the Middle Ages and so on. Major challenges. There is a social phenomenon of the popular opinion which swings from one extreme to the other. This is with the human mind as well, from one extreme, it switches to the other. Maintaining healthy balance is what we have difficulty with. This pendulum motion can be observed many times. Think of parenting styles. Used to be very strict, then very lax. Or women’s movements: first strict domestic life, then came emancipation and that was also a bit overboard. And this oscillation can be observed many times. When people are addicted, they want to pull away from the addiction, break free, regain freedom; the more one is enslaved, the more intense the longing for freedom. Or if life is too complicated, there is a longing for a simpler life again. We do not have a crystal ball, but I am sure we can predict this: AI is very new and it is very highly addictive. In the next few generations, the pendulum will swing back. AI is still almost brand new and it takes a while until people realize that they have fallen into a trap, but they will then start to search for the truth, very intensely. There will be resurgence in the search for meaning because AI can be fed will all sorts of lies. I give you an example: A few weeks ago, my son came and told me indignantly, “Mommy, the internet says that you died in 2011.” And I laughed and I said, “It’s a good thing that this is only fake news!” But look, someone put that in there. AI does not care if Mrs. Lukas is dead or not, it depends on whoever fed it that information. AI can imitate people’s faces, mimic their voice and tell the greatest lies, or complete nonsense. AI could simulate me saying, “Dr. Frankl was a gangster, and a fool, and whatever” and this can mislead an entire segment of the population. People do not like to be misled. Ninety nine percent of the people do not like to be misled. So, there will be resurgence of the search for the truth, for what is genuine and reliable. So, until then, one needs to think of filters or strategies or methods to filter the truth from falsehood and to preserve the truth. For now, this generation has plunged headfirst into virtual reality, it’s fake, it’s easy, it’s faster, its better. Slowly, they will come back to reality because the virtual reality is inferior because it’s not real and it’s not genuine. What is not genuine is inferior. To have genuine encounters with people, genuine experiences, real nature, will have an increased value and so will be with having access to true information on which one can depend.
- Sometimes we notice things too late. I’ll give you an example from the gym. There are four levels. There is an elevator. People take the elevator, spend time on the Stairmaster, so I am asking myself, why did they not take the stairs instead?
- I have the same example. I have a friend who takes a car to the fitness studio where he does 4000 steps on the treadmill. Walking to the fitness studio and home would have taken the same amount of steps, and she could have enjoyed fresh air and created no exhaust.
- We are so tempted by convenience, and the easy ways. We are hungry and we order food with a call; when we are lonely, we go to social media and see what friends are doing and write to someone. What about losing skills in this way, just like in sports when the muscles are not used and they atrophy. But I tell you another story: In the summer I was in Greece. I had time for myself and had time to write. I noticed how writing helped me to think, to organize things in my head. When we come back to this fast-paced society, we feel under pressure to perform. AI puts out about five new tools a day. So, I am asking myself; are we losing our abilities?
- There are two things here. One is the temptations, and the other are the simplifications that AI allows. Temptations are all sorts; drinking, smoking, spending time not doing work, etc. We have freedom to spite the temptation or to give in to it. It’s easy to give in, it’s hard to resist. But people do not always choose the easy way. When it becomes really bad for them, or they see someone who had it bad or read about it or see it in a movie, when they all the sudden get the insight that this behavior or this habit is not good. Then people can pull the emergency breakes and change themselves a bit and change something in their lives. We need to hold on to this awareness of our freedom. In modern society belief in God declined but belief in humanity has also shrunk. With the awareness of freedom and choices, one then is confronted with what is worth deciding for? And that is why I think AI will fuel the search for meaning, because when there are many options, the choice is harder but when the selection is the most important and where one needs to decide for one option among many and that means those other options will not be acted upon which means, that we have to make a sacrifice. When I am talking to you now, and it’s a nice conversation, I said “no” to at least 20 other things I could have done today. One “yes,” means many “no” s. This is part of the search for meaning. Today’s society teaches us a bit about making choices because at a large supermarket, one needs to choose one item among many, and one learns to have to let go of the many other possibilities. A few people are compulsive shoppers, but most have learned that they need to choose carefully on the internet for the right item they want to order. So, when you talk about skill atrophy; there are other skills that one develops. This is what today’s generation is learning: to choose one and let go of the rest. Make a sacrifice.
- Before this conversation I wanted to be well prepared, so I asked AI to suggest some questions. I looked at the list I generated on my own and the AI generated list and I decided the AI generated list was not right. I wanted to ask some questions, but when I thought about it, those that AI suggested would have sounded stupid. Or, I wanted to ask very intelligent questions, or more questions, or better-quality questions, so I was torn between the slow way, on paper, or the fast way, where I press a button and questions come pouring out. But I am always tempted. At the end I decided to go with my questions because I know you and our conversation flows. But this back-and-forth thinking is challenging.
- You are a young man right in the middle of this development and perhaps AI will develop and you can ask it for some suggestions for a topic, or questions during a conversation. You can use your brain or your second brain as long as it is useful.
- What if I can’t decide if it’s useful or not?
- You will develop the skill of judging it. Some skills will be lost; some skills new skills are learned. With every technological advancement it’s like that. Before GPS, one had to rely on memory. Taxi drivers had memorized the entire city. Or we had maps. One had to memorize the route and then get there. We lost that skill a bit. Women used to hand wash the clothes. Nowadays we do not know as well how to hand-wash our clothes. But there are new skills. And so, it is between making a decision to use your first brain or your second brain, you can evaluate the usefulness and be in control of your choice. As far as the search for the truth, I have no concerns about it, I am sure AI will be managed, and it cannot dominate humanity.
- When they say “walk the talk” I always think about you. Personally, how do you manage avoiding temptation and the seduction of technology?
- I have been seduced and led astray, and I am just a human being. I learned a lot from Frankl who helped us to understand what it means to be a human being and this confidence in human being is important. Frankl said something serious: “Man is the one who invented the gas chambers and also who walked into them with the head held high and a prayer on the lips.” So, he said, a human being can behave like an angel or a devil. A human being is who decides in every moment what they will become. Through reflection one thinks about what kind of human one would like to be. We can change our ways. The more dignified stand we have toward ourselves the more dignified stand we can have towards others. There are always people who see themselves as victims, who blame others for their current problem, and refuse to change, and there are always those who think of themselves as co-creators of their circumstances, and they know they have some freedom and in this freedom they can shape themselves and shape the world and the state of the world depends, even if in a small way, on them. The circumstances of tomorrow will not alter who a person is. Seeing oneself as an active co-creator of life affects the world. Frankl said there are only two races, the decent and the indecent people. They exist in all nations, races, classes. Leaders belong to the group who think they influence the world. When they belong to the category of decent people, they are a blessing for their company and for society.
- How can one inspire other people to be in the decent category?
- By modeling decency.
- That’s why I concentrate on integrity as a leader…” Like what you preach.”
- Yes, one needs to live what one teaches.
- I always think of you as someone who embodies this. I thought that if you had written 55 or 56 books about certain way of living and being then you must have internalized that what you wrote about along the way.
- I have a talent for writing. You have a great talent for talking. When you write, you use a different talent. You have weaknesses. I also have weaknesses. Do not put me on a pedestal. We are allowed to have weaknesses, but they should not get in the way. We should leave the weaknesses on the side and concentrate on using our talents. And if one can’t write so well, maybe they have other abilities, like music, or a heart for nature or animals, etc. and they can contribute to conservation of the environment. Talents are stirring, they are making themselves known. Something that one enjoys. Something that brings joy.
- As a manager, I want people to be cheerful and energetic.
- This is good because you encourage them, but we need to remember that strength is finite and not everyone has the same amount of energy as you. Some people are more reserved, but they can also find ways of making a valuable contribution. Almost every person, as long as they have a little area of freedom and function reasonably well, can make a meaningful contribution in their own way. And this applies even to people who are bedridden can choose how they thank others around them. We often think about bosses, managers, and top managers, but we should not forget the small people because everyone is valuable.
- I was thinking that it is good to have people who are supportive and help to develop a talent or make you aware of it because many times we are unaware of our talents.
- Yes, absolutely. To emphasize the importance of every person. What a person is should be present in our conscience to behave accordingly.
- I learned that to be in flow, one needs to have uninterrupted time and take brakes.
- Multitasking does not work well. But one is not always in the zone either. As long as people can fulfill the task that is theirs, they should be satisfied with themselves. Not everyone has an exciting job, but it can be meaningful. There is a lady who cleans the steps at the care facility where I live. She does a very nice job, and her work is very useful, and it is meaningful. She can be satisfied with herself, but I imagine she looks forward to the weekends when she does not have to do the cleaning anymore.
- Maybe, I am idealistic and I think people can make a decision to love their work.
- Yes, people can have many ways of living and for some it’s their work that they look forward to, but for others it can be the weekend. For example, one earns enough money, has a hobby, goes to visit others, has a rich life. Others are lucky to have a job. Others can’t find a job. While it would be great if all employees were always cheerful, that is not realistic. One needs to remain realistic. It’s good when the requirements and the skills match. When one is not overdemanded or under demanded. This is a point for managers to consider; to match the demands with the skills and abilities.
- Finally, I want to ask you a personal question. We have freedom but we are creatures of habit. We like to have routines. What routines do you have, or have developed that you would recommend for people in leadership positions because they improved your life?
- I retreat into silence. And silence really means silence. When I can remain in silence for a while then things become clear. Thoughts settle down. I used this image to illustrate it, if you take a cup and fill it with water from a river, all sorts of things will float there. With time, those settle down. Silence helps to feel and to see the essentials more clearly. One can see through better and it becomes more obvious what right now is essential, in my situation. When I was married, I had a different situation than when I became widowed. When I was working, I had a different situation than now when I am retired. When I become aware of what is truly essential right now in my life, I step out of the silence and return to everyday life, but somehow, I always take away something from it. This is what I would recommend to others.
- How long do you remain in silence?
- Sometimes ten minutes, sometimes half an hour. Sometimes I go for a walk. The best ideas come when I do not think about anything at all. You were talking about uninterrupted time, and this is it for me. Then I sit down to write and the time flies. Breaks are important, pauses are important. There is the opposite too, that one works in a hectic way, never taking a break. Like we said, everything can be used for good or for bad. And that is why we keep rooting for what is true, and good, and beautiful.
- This is a good conclusion, to take breaks and consider what is really important. Thank you for this inspiring conversation. I hope to read your new book in the Spring.
- Do you want to know the title? “It’s Never Late for a Meaningful Living”
- Look forward to reading it. We will put a link to it. Thank you for this conversation.
- Thank you.